Tag Archives: Ancestry by Linda Claire Groshans

John Andrew Bravin 1922-2011by Linda Claire Groshans

When John Andrew Bravin “Uncle John” was born on March 1, 1922, in Meduno, Udine, Italy, his father, Anibale, was 31 and his mother, Lousa “Louise” Melosso, was 22.

In the 1930 US Census, Uncle John was only 8 years old. He was living with his family then at 924 E. 10th Street, Altoona, PA. The census indicates that both of his parents were born in Italy and that the family language in their home was Italian. In this same year, his younger brother Louis was 5 years old and his sister Madeline was 3 years old. Both Louis and Madeline were born Altoona, Pennsylvania.

Uncle John was a US veteran. He was in the US Marine Corp during WWII and served as a Sergeant.

He died on February 10, 2011, in Altoona, Pennsylvania, at the age of 88, and was buried there.

Here are a few photos from the Groshans family photo collection:

Uncle John Bravin holding his nephew Jack

Chauncey Commodore Hitt 1812-1874 by Linda Claire Groshans

Photo found on multiple websites including Ancestry and Family Search

Chauncey was the 3rd Great Grandfather of Eugene Norbert Wiesner.

Here is how they related:

When Chauncey Commodore Hitt was born on August 23, 1812, in Delaware, New York, his father, Isaac, was 27 and his mother, Anne Moore Hitt, was 25. He married Frances Elizabeth Walter in 1839. They had seven children in 15 years. He died on November 14, 1874, in Door, Wisconsin, at the age of 62, and was buried there.

Here is a photo of Chauncey’s wife Frances Elizabeth Walter Hitt that I found on Ancestry and Family Search web sites.

photo from multiple web sites including Ancestry

Stories of Chauncey’s life are told in a publication called: “History of Door County, Wisconsin: the county beautiful” Chauncey is listed as one of the first persons to buy land in Door County.

From some of my other research, it appears that just shortly before Chauncey’s death he bought a boarding house attached to a saw mill and turned it into a tavern and saloon to be run by his son Charles. I believe the property was named the “Eagle Hotel.”

These are very small print, and I only have dates and not the names of the newspapers:

9 October 1873
26 March 1874

I found these death notices:

From Find a Grave
28 November 1874 Green Bay Weekly Gazette, Wisconsin

This is a link to Find A Grave information: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/59413496

Hendrick Jansen Oosteroom – a direct ancestor from the Netherlands by Linda Claire Groshans

Hendrick Jansen Oosteroom was my 8th great grandfather. Here is how we relate:

When Hendrick Jansen Oosteroom was born in 1630 in Netherlands, his father, Jan, was 25 and his mother, Claudina Relyea, was 24. He married Tryntje Lubbertse VanBlarcom and they had five children together. He then married Geesje Jacobs on May 23, 1666. He died in 1670 in Poughkeepsie, New York, at the age of 40.

Here is a photo of records regarding his 2nd marriage:

His name later became Hendrick Jansen Ostrom. A comment made on Family Search.org reads: “The Dutch of New Amsterdam did not use surnames until 1664 when British took control & renamed New York. The surname “Oosteroom” as entered here has seven alternate spellings as seen on records of time frame – whoever could write spelled & wrote what was heard, not what was meant to be heard”

He was also called Hendrick Van Schalwyk which used the place of his birth as his name.

In 1654, there are records of him receiving a land grant for 25 mogens of land in Kill van Kull, the site of what would later be, Bergen New Jersey. Because of problems the settlers were having there with the Native Americans, it seems that Hendrick later took a lease for unsettled land in Poughkeepsie, Dutchess County, NY. which was a part of British Colonial America. From familysearch.org “He was apparently living in New Jersey when the Indians forced all white persons living west of the Hudson to retreat to New Amsterdam, where his second child was born in 1657.”

Garret Spruhan 1825-1869 – My 2nd great grandfather and an immigrant to America from Ireland having arrived here on a Famine Ship by Linda Claire Groshans

My direct ancestor and 2nd Great Grandfather, Garret Spruhan, was born in about 1825 in Kilkenny Ireland. (source reference for birth is the 1860 census) The name Spruhan is rare in the United States and in Ireland.

In 1850, at the age of 25, Garret left Ireland and immigrated to the United States on a “famine ship.” The name of the ship was the “Martha.” He embarked from Liverpool.
This brief history of famine ships (includes the ship the “Martha”) Information may be found at http://www.irishamericanjourney.com/2011/10/irishships-to-america.html

Here is a post about Garret Spruhan that I found on-line. This quote also is the only reference found for death date. Garret lived only to age 44.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.surnames/33aNmWAGM5Y/JoNI6PBZP40J:

“Garret Spruhan was a farmer in County Kilkenny. He arrived in New York like many from his country and eventually moved west with the railroads. He married Margaret Denny and had five children. The Spruhan family settled in Crawfordsville, Indiana.The children’s names were as follows: John Arthur, Katherine, William Henry, Eliza J., and Macie.

In 1862 Margaret Denny Spruhan died (She was my 2nd great grandmother). Garret Spruhan returned to farming in 1864 after purchasing land north of Crawfordsville. He also remarried in that year to Ann McKevitt Wood. The family farm prospered over the next four years, as evidenced from estate records. Tragedy hit the family in early 1869 when Garret died.

From the estate records, the Spruhan children were sent to live on farms in neighboring counties. Only Macie remained at the Spruhan farm with her stepmother.
Any questions or comments are welcomed.”  Note: this means that my great grandfather Henry Spruhan was emancipated at the age of 12!

____________________________
In 1852, at the age of 27, Garrett Spruhan married Margaret Denny. They were married on January 11, 1852 in Hamilton Co., Ohio by a Roman Catholic bishop.
In the 1860 census, Garret lives in Union, Montgomery, Indiana. The afore mentioned
quotation states that he settled in Crawfordsville, Indiana. (The Civil war would begin on April 12, 1861)
__________________________
Garrett had a brother named John Henry. John immigrated to Nova Scotia Canada. He changed the spelling of his last name from Spruhan to Spruin. This is documented in a post found online. http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/pageload.cgi?Roanoke::in::36997.html
(There seems to be an incorrect piece of information in this post. Garret immigrated in
1850 and NOT 1839. Also, there may be a misspelling of Garret’s second wife’s name.)

Here is the post that I found on-line from family historian Lydia Spruhan:
Dear Spruhan Family querers:
My name is Lydia Mary Spruhan. I am the genealogist of the family. I can tell you alot about the Spruhans in Indiana. The family began in this country when Garret Spruhan came to America from Ireland in 1839, and married Margaret Denny, also from Ireland. The were married in the Roman Catholic Church, by the Bishop of Pennsylvania. Garret
became a naturalized citizen in 1940. I still have his original naturalization papers, as well as official “copies” issued by the Gov’t. He and his wife moved to Crawfordsville, Indiana and began a family, the oldest being John Arthur (NOT Alexander) Spruhan, who is my great-great-grandfather. I have many photos of him, as well as letters to my
grandfather from his daughter, my great-great. Eliza, whom you also mentioned, became the first female attorney in the State of Indiana, and carried the name Eliza Spruhan Painter. She ran a charity for Confederate Soldiers from the Civil War. But, I am jumping ahead of myself here. There were many children born to the Spruhans, some of whom died in infancy. They were all baptized at the Catholic church in Crawfordsville. I have the original church ledgers if you would like to see them. When Garret and Margaret were still fairly young, Margaret died. Garret married a woman named
Ann McKerritt, also from Ireland, as a second wife. After Garret died (I have never found out whether he died in the Civil War after conscription or of natural causes), the
children were sadly separated into different families in the community. I have the name of the family who raised Eliza and the younger children. I’ll have to look it up for you, it’s
German. John Arthur and Henry were already of sufficient age to be emancipated as adults. John Arthur married Joan America Bohannon, who is in herself quite a story. Their children are in my direct line, so I can share that history with you as well if you wish. Her family dates back to the pre-Revolutionary times, and my female ancestors and aunts have always been in the DAR due to the connection to John Bohannon who served in the Virginia militia during the Revolution. John Arthur was the railroad man for the stop in Crawfordsville for many years. His son, Fred Garret Spruhan went to Purdue and also became an Engineer. His son, John Galey Spruhan, is my grandfather, also a Purdue grad and engineer. John Halsey Spruhan was the only child of John
Galey Spruhan and my grandmother, Beatrice Halsey, who only recently died a few years ago at 93. After John Halsey Spruhan, of Salem, VA, comes Paul Wesley Spruhan, my
brother, and then his son, my five-year old nephre Bahe Spruhan. Paul lives in Arizona with his Navajo wife, Bidtah. Both of his children are also enrolled in the Navajo Nation
(tribe).

Back to the beginning:
The Spruhans come from County Carlow, and County Kilkenny, Ireland. Garret was from Kilkenny, and he has a brother who also emigrated around the same time to Nova
Scotia. the family there changed the spelling of their name so it would be pronounced correctly (Sproo-in), NOT Sproo-Han. They go by the spelling Spruin. John Henry Spruin is the brother who went to Canada. His son, John, is somewhat of a local Nova Scotia hero, as he was one of the “Halifax Nine”, who were first responding fireman at the Halifax explosion (when a munitions boat exploded in Halifax Harbor, killing all
nine, who were the only fireman who responded, given the seriousness of the explosion and the certainty of death. There are still Spruins in Canada whom I know of.

Back to Ireland:
The Spruhan Family are all buried back hundreds of years from Garret’s arrival in the US, at St. Columbkille’s Cemetery in Thomastown. There are barrows in the distance of the ancient Celtic kings who the area around the Nor River (Black River) in Kilkenny. There are Spruhans still there, in the area of Carlow bordering Thomastown, Kilkenny. They are headed by Thomas and Peggy Spruhan, and they have five sons, one of whom I talk to, Edmond, who lives in the Boston area. One of Edmond’s brothers, Michael I believe, lived and worked in Mexico City, and married a Mexican woman. They have a son named Emilio. So, as you can see with the Navajo & Mexican influences, our family is quite diverse.

Of course I have the documents and photos for all of this. There are a few other Spruhans in my home state of VA: Jack Spruhan, my great uncle (Fred Garret’s cousin), and his local hero father, Pinky (Guy) Spruhan RIP, who was the football coach at Roanoke College for many years.

What else are you wanting to know about? Henry Spruhan is your ancestor, I do have a family tree which comes down to the 1980s. there should be two siblings named Paul (not my brother Paul) and his sister Cinnamon Spruhan. they also had a younger brother who died as a child. Cinnamon should be in her 30s and Paul is a young free spirited 20 something. People often search for my brother, Paul, on Facebook, and are si surprized when they find Paul Spruhna from Henry’s line, as he seems to be into counter culture…like Punk Rock or skateboards or similar style.

As I said, you’ll have to ask my some more questions if I’m to help you find (or have myself alreay), the particular documents or information you require.

Interesting piece of sad Famine-era family history: there was a young woman named Bridget Spruhan who jumped to her death from a prison ship rather than be put into a life of servitude and slavery in Australia. For some reason the song “Fields of Athenry” makes me cry, most likely due to Bridget’s experience.
Many regards,
Lydia Mary Spruhan
Salem, VA
_______________________
Of Garret’s children, my direct ancestor is Henry Joseph Spruhan who married Caroline Baur. Henry was 12 at the time of his father’s death and was thus thrust into an early adulthood emancipation. (Henry Spruhan was my Great Grandfather)

My name is Linda Claire Hess Groshans

List of generations:
Garret Spruhan and Margaret Denny
Henry Joseph Spruhan and Caroline “Carrie” Baur
Henrietta Spruhan and George K. Hess, Sr.
Robert Lawrence Hess and Gretchen Lois Ream (my parents)

Comments from Ancestry.com

“Nor River: The Spruhan Family are all buried back hundreds of years from Garret’s arrival in the US, at St. Columbkille’s Cemetery in Thomastown. There are barrows in the distance of the ancient Celtic kings who the area around the Nor River (Black River) in Kilkenny.”

William Sprague 1609-1675 an American Colonist and my ancestor by Linda Claire Groshans

William Sprague was my 9th great grandfather.

LCG photo of a meadow

photo by Linda Claire Groshans

When William Sprague was born on October 26, 1609, in Upwey, Dorset, England, his father, Edward, was 33 and his mother, Christiana Margaret Holland, was 31. William’s father was a fuller by trade.

William married Millicent Eames on May 26, 1635, in Charlestown, Massachusetts. They had 12 children in 18 years. He died on October 26, 1675, in Hingham, Massachusetts, at the age of 66.

William was one of the first planters in Massachusetts. He had arrived in Massachusetts Bay having left from Upway, Dorsetshire, England in 1628. He probably traveled on the ship Abigail. He traveled to the colonies with his brothers Ralph and Richard. They were some of the first settlers in Watertown and Charlestown. William moved to Hingham in 1634 with his future father-in- law, Lt. Anthony Eames.

North America Family Histories 1500 to 2000 Sprague Families in America

Source: North America Family Histories 1500 to 2000, Sprague Families in America

North America, Family Histories 1500 to 2000, Sprague Families in America

Source: North America Family Histories 1500 to 2000, Sprague Families in America

From source: Great Migration Study Project…”By 1636 William was a proprietor and in ensuing years received several grants of land. He served as a fence-viewer, constable and disbursing officer as well as a selectman in 1645.”

I thought that it was most interesting that in his will, part of his estate were his books valued at 8s.

New England, The Great Migration and the Great Migration begins Vol. 3 P W

Source: Great Migration and the Great Migration Begins Vol. 3 P-W

William Sprague, Sr., my 10th great grandfather died the 26 day of October, 1675, but ” not a stone tells where he lies.”

how we relate

Here is how I relate to William Sprague, Sr.

 

Web sites that tell of William’s life:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/35310519

You can purchase this book on Amazon:  The Genealogy Of The Sprague’s In Hingham: Arranged In Chronological Order, To The Fourth Generation, Counting From William Sprague, One Of The First … England, In The Year 1628.

On the free website FamilySearch.org the ID# for William is LT3K-KCD

 

 

Celia Marion Joyce Moller 1898-1961by Linda Claire Groshans

Celia Marion Joyce Moller

When Celia Marion Joyce was born on March 18, 1898, in Derry, New Hampshire, her father, William Lawrence Joyce, was 22, and her mother, Olive Annis Watts, was 24. She married Charles Edwin Moller on December 25, 1919, in her hometown. They had seven children in 12 years. She died on June 11, 1961, in Hartford, Connecticut, at the age of 63, and was buried in Manchester, Connecticut. (Article below from Hartford Courant, Hartford, CT. 13 Jun 1961)

13 Jun 1961 Hartford, CT

The children of Marion Joyce and Charles Edwin Moller are listed below:

children of celia and charles

Charles and Celia Moller

“Someday I Shall Be Old” by Maude Lillian Meador Groshans

This article was written by Maude Lillian Meador Groshans who was my children’s  great grandmother. Maude Lillian Meador was born on April 16, 1887, in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, her father, Robert Meador, was 25, and her mother, Charlotte Shipman, was 22. She married Gottlieb Jack Groshans on June 12, 1912, in her hometown. She died on January 17, 1971, in Ypsilanti, Michigan, at the age of 83, and was buried in Streator, Illinois. (note that Maude picked the name Robert Jack for her son. This must have been a namesake because her father was named Robert and her husband was Gottlieb “Jack” Groshans.)

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Submitted at the usual rates by  Mrs. Jack Groshans
104 Wall St.
Eureka  Springs, Ark.

SOMEDAY I SHALL BE OLD by Maude Meador-Groshans.

The  warning  whistle  of  “fair,  slim,  and  forty”,  bids  me  STOP,  LOOK,  and  LISTEN.    FOR THE ENGINE OF OLD AGE IS THUNDERING JUST BEYOND THE CURVE.

Now  I  have  an   ambition   to   be  a  healthy,  happy,  likable  old  lady.  For some reason the opinions  of  the  aged  seem  to  set  like  concrete,  therefore  I  will   warn   myself of the pitfalls before that time comes.

These are rules and regulations to guide me when I find myself “not so young as I was”.

Do   be  scrupulously  clean  physically. A  dirty  old   person   is  an  abomination.      A soiled baby is sometimes cunning -an   elderly person  never.  Bathe  daily  and  see  that  the  linen next your  skin is  spotless. Watch  for  bodily   odors  –  and  use  a  deodorant. Thus you avoid disgusting your friends.

Be careful of your appearance. I hope my grandchildren will be proud of “the  way grandma looks”.

Keep  the  mind  dressed in up  to date ideas. You are as young as your mind; read new books, see  new  plays, hear new music, see new pictures-and do it with an   unprejudiced mind -strive to get the modern viewpoint. Don’t let your mind stay in a  rut  twenty  years behind the times.

don’t  condemn  present  styles;  they  are  as  beautiful   as  what   you   wore   thirty   years  ago and  likely  more  sanitary.  If  you  do  not  believe  it,  get  out  the  fashions   and examine the  hats, skirts, sleeves, shoes, and think it over.

NEVER   under  any   provocation offer  advice. Keep  still. You had to  learn,  and  it developed you,  didn’t  it?  Why deny others the chance to grow? Besides, people do not really want  advice. They  tell  you   their  troubles and  say  “What   would  you  do?” Honestly now, how many ever  followed your  advice?  Can  you  recall  one? And was  your advice  wise? Free advice  is  not  valued  highly. If  the case is really serious, send   them to a lawyer if  it  is  legal,  to  a  doctor  if  physical  or  mental,  to  a  minister if   spiritual, and   to other  professions if technical.  At   least  you  will  be free from blame if their case is not rightly  diagnosed.  In the same  way,  avoid  seeking  advice  from  any  except  those  competent  to  give  it, and our friends seldom are – the very fact that they are friends may blind or bias their judgement.

Keep   family affairs  to  yourself.  You  may be wrongfully  treated, but it is human nature to  take the  side o the  absent   one  (mentally, if   not  audibly). Besides it is  undignified. If you  have to  live  with the younger generation, your years should have   taught you  the art of adjusting  yourself.  Surely, you should be wiser than they.      Loyalty  is  a   wonderful   thing. If   you   live  with   an  in-law   whom   you  detest,  keep  it  to  yourself. Don’t  tell  your  children   if you   dislike their  mates. There  is  a  possibility  they  dislike  you,  too,  you  know,  and  it   isn’t making it any easier for criticism to creep in.

Don’t,   please   don’t, advise young mother how to rear their children. They invariably  resent  it  and modern  methods are different to what they were when you reared yours. “The   world do  progress”.     Besides their mistakes are a help to them. And never correct other people’s children. So many  old  folks  have  the  annoying  habit  of  admonishing “Now,  now,  you  mustn’t  do  that.  Nice  little  boys  don’t  do  that”.     “Why, Susie, that isn’t polite. What  would  Miss  Blank  think  if  she saw  you do that?”  Oh, but the  children  hate  it and  I have inwardly marveled at the control of the  children  in  not  answering  as  rudely  as  the questioner deserved . After all, if your grandchildren, or your friend’s offspring are rude, ill-mannered,  ill-tempered         nuisances, you are  not  responsible,  and  so  why  worry,  and  why annoy  the  mother by criticizing?

Don’t   begin by being imposed upon by your married  children. Taking care of the kiddies  while  parents  take  a  vacation,  or  for  the  afternoon  while  mother  goes  to  a  party or lecture can soon become slavery and your time  is  no  longer your own.  There is a conspiracy    among    young    folks    that    their    parents never have   anything they   are  interested in which they cannot  leave without  warning. They  take  it  for  granted  that  “Mother  will   be glad   to   keep the  children”.  Does   the   prospect   appeal to  you? Want all your time mortgaged? Well, I  don’t.  If  you,  at  the  beginning,  let  it  be  known  that   you ‘ll   enjoy  having  them unless you  have  another  engagement,  or  there   is   something   else   you   would   rather   do,   the   children  will  soon   learn  that  you  do  it  as   a  favor. They will find a way to  manage  without  making  a  drudge  of  you. Sounds selfish  but  to  offset  this,  I  say  there  are  times  when  parents  should sacrifice   to   help   their   children. If  daughter  is   recovering   from   a   wearing   illness,   or   son  has  had   a nervous   breakdown and  grandmother   could   keep   the   children   a   few   weeks, it would   be  a  duty  shirked not  to  lend  a  hand. What I contend is, young people need the responsibility,  as  well  as  the  joy  of   a  family   and   you   rob   them   of   character   development   if you let them shift the load on you .

Get  an   interest   in  life  –  a  hobby .  Start a collection of something and  learn  all  you  can about   your   collection   and similar  ones.  Study  butterflies  or  birds  –  keep  a   record   of   kinds seen,   time   of   arrival   and  departure,   habitat. Photography  may  be   as   placid   or   as   strenuous as  you  wish.  Grow  a  special  flower  or  vegetable;   raise chickens or  ducks or squabs or goldfish – do something that interests you.  It  will  help  to  keep  you  fit  physically,  fresh mentally, probably keep you out of somebody’s way.

The most difficult accomplishment to acquire is that of being an intelligent listener.

We  all  like  to  talk  but  don’t   we  treasure   that   friend   who   by   cleverly   placed   question   or  an apt   answer   makes   us   forget   how   we   are   monopolizing the  conversation? And what a subtle way of acquiring reputation for wisdom.

A  sunny  natured   old  person  is   a  joy.     Not one of those determinedly  jolly  old  duffers who  meet  you  with  a  slap  on  the  back  and  a   “Fine day.  Ha! Ha!”  manner. Just simple good humor.

Don’t  talk  of aches and  pains. All  old   people  seem  to  have  them. People hate to listen – and  they  seldom  care. Tell  it  to  your  doctor. He is probably bored stiff but at least he can charge you for listening. ·

Avoid  food   which  you  know  is  injurious   to  you.     Take  care  of   your  health.     sleep long hours  –  rest  in  the  middle  of  the  day  (a  nap  is  better);  drink   large   quantities   of   water;   eat simple   foods;   don’t   worry   about  other’s  affairs.  Life will continue when you are gone.

Cultivate   friendships with  younger  generation, then when contemporaries pass on, there remain strong links with the present and you are getting a new viewpoint.

Save   enough   to   be modestly  independent.  If you need care in old age, having the  money  to  buy service  takes  away  that  humiliating  feeling   that   your   relatives   are  discommoding  themselves  and  families  doing  what  you  should   have   had   the   foresight   to avoid.   Better  to  spend   less  now and  have  more later. “If youth but  knew  what  age  would crave, it would both make and save”.

So  many  old  folks  give  away,  or  sign  away  their   independence   to   someone   on   the promise  of  having  a  home  and  care  as  long  as  they  live. DON’T  DO IT.    I  have  never  yet  seen it  work successfully .  Keep  what  you  have  and  pay  as  you  go.    Then  if  you  are  unsuited  you can  go  elsewhere.  This  is  the  most  serious  fault  of  the  elderly,  and  I  think   someway   ought   to be devised by law to avoid it being done.

I  should   like  to  grow  old   gracefully   –  no,  placidly,   and   they   are not  synonymous.      Not from  a  desire  to  fool  the  public  about  my  age. Who  cares  how  old  I  am,  anyway?     Besides it is a  waste  of  time  to  lie  about  your  age  in  your   home  town. There is always  some  old  woman  to tell  on  you. We  all  know  her.   She begins sternly “She is fifty-four, I remember she was born the August after my Benny in June and he was fifty-four the fourteenth.

Don’t   take   root   in a  place.     All of us are familiar with a pathetic  old  mother  grieving  herself   to   death   for  her  old   home and old  friends. The prospect of  settling  down  for  life sounds  peaceful,  but  we  are  not  masters  of   our   own   destiny   and   changes   may   come   that make   it   imperative   that   a  change be  made.  How  much  better  to  teach  ourselves  to  be adaptable  and  enjoy  the   move   than   to   go   mooning   around,   making   everyone   miserable  around us over the unavoidable.

If   you  want   to  be  a  healthy,  happy  old  person,   begin  now    to   lay   the  foundations.     The cheerful, resourceful aged are not sudden products – they developed slowly from youth.

You  cannot  be  a  glutton  now  and  otherwise  abuse  your  body   and   be   a   hale  old person, anymore  than  you  can  make  a  cesspool  of  your  mind  now  and  have  a  sane,  clean  outlook   in   later  years.  Nor can you let your spiritual life fester with doubts and “isms”  and  meet  death  tranquilly.

Be   tolerant   of   other’s   ideas and  opm1ons.     Taboo   religious   arguments,    or   political differences .  Among   women   don’t   discuss   age,   weight, or  diet!            don’t reminisce about yourself.    Don’t talk of the good old days – “Today is the best day the world has ever seen, tomorrow   will  be  better”.     Don’t express the idea that young people are fools and immoral – our grandmothers said the same of us.